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Crit40
Posts:2483
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| 05/16/2008 4:45 PM |
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And if you are conceding that the carbon fiber blades are not at issue, then what are his advantages?
And if you are worried about the disadvatages, and he is not, what's the harm?
Your contention seems to be that disabled people, no matter what, should not be able to compete for the same jobs, or be able to do the same things as everyone else, strictly because there are elements of advantages vs. disadvantages. Your contention is that disabled people should only be able to compete for jobs and do things with other disabled people, and I just don't quite get that. If some leggless amputee was able to increase pot pie sales by 5%, it would seem that you would be screaming that it is not a fair playing field.
There's a word for that......discrimination.
I'll concede that if there is an advantage to the disabled person, I would be against it. But if there is a disadvantage, and in most cases that is the reality, and the disadvantaged person only wants a fair shot, then for me it is a non issue. |
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Counting the Herd one hoof at a time. |
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Fergie
Posts:377
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| 05/16/2008 4:47 PM |
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http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4014315371577048612
This link is a piece about level playing fields for women and the obstacles they've had to overcome in sports. It relates. |
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Fergie
Posts:377
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| 05/16/2008 4:50 PM |
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Posted By Crit40 on 05/16/2008 4:45 PM
And if you are conceding that the carbon fiber blades are not at issue, then what are his advantages?
And if you are worried about the disadvatages, and he is not, what's the harm?
Your contention seems to be that disabled people, no matter what, should not be able to compete for the same jobs, or be able to do the same things as everyone else, strictly because there are elements of advantages vs. disadvantages. Your contention is that disabled people should only be able to compete for jobs and do things with other disabled people, and I just don't quite get that. If some leggless amputee was able to increase pot pie sales by 5%, it would seem that you would be screaming that it is not a fair playing field.
There's a word for that......discrimination.
I'll concede that if there is an advantage to the disabled person, I would be against it. But if there is a disadvantage, and in most cases that is the reality, and the disadvantaged person only wants a fair shot, then for me it is a non issue.
That post is lacking in open mindedness, sincerity and integrity.
If you look back on my posts and then take aim with words like discrimination, then I will take my argument to another board. It is clear you have no ability to see things from various angles.
Adios. |
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SeahawksSB42champs
Posts:1206
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| 05/16/2008 4:51 PM |
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It doesn't relate...it's apples and oranges. Did a handicapped guy beat the crap out of you at a frat party or something? You make no sense on this issue, D.D. -- which, as you have proven, is standard operating procedure.
And please...DO take your argument to another board. The "I hate handicapped people" board would be a good starting point. |
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Crit40
Posts:2483
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| 05/16/2008 4:55 PM |
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While the story is an emotional triumph, I personally do not believe this guy should be allowed to compete with the other athletes without physical disabilities.
It is not fair IMO that he will be allowed to compete against athletes that do not share his disability. It is unfair to him and the athletes that have both legs. I debated most of lunch today around this subject.
Did you not type this? You are suggesting that disables only be allowed to compete with other disables. How is one to take that? If you are suggesting it for athletics, it stands to reason that this is your overall position.
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Counting the Herd one hoof at a time. |
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Fergie
Posts:377
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| 05/16/2008 4:56 PM |
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Seahawk, I know you will not allow reason. I knew some troubled youths in Omaha when I was growing up that were "knuckleheads" for a softer word than "fools" that resembled you in behavioral patterns.
Oblivious and obnoxious to go along with being a follower. That was them then and you now.
"What wine, who's wine, where the hell did I dine?" -Peter Frampton
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SeahawksSB42champs
Posts:1206
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| 05/16/2008 4:59 PM |
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| Those "knuckleheads" obviously had more common sense then than you possess now, so I'll take that as a compliment. |
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Fergie
Posts:377
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| 05/16/2008 5:00 PM |
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Critter, my argument had/has nothing to do with disabled people but rather Level Playing Fields and I've indicated that very clearly.
You can turn down that avenue if you like. It has nothing to do with my position being athletic competition should have a level playing field for the integrity of the competition.
Parlay that into whatever you need to. Go alone. |
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Crit40
Posts:2483
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| 05/16/2008 5:06 PM |
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Fergie, disabled people, for the most part, are not on equal grounds, no matter how you slice it. Whether it be a job, athletics, or whatever, they will always be on the disadvantaged side.
If we continue to tell them they can't, what message is that sending?
In this particular case, the playing field may not be level, but it is not level to the detriment of the disabled. If he meets the standard and qualifies, just like everyone else, and he doesn't feel he is being disadvantaged, why is this an issue?
BTW, if I offended, my sincere apologies. The discrimination comment probably stepped over the line a tad bit.  |
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Counting the Herd one hoof at a time. |
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Fergie
Posts:377
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| 05/16/2008 5:13 PM |
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I'm going home in a few so this will be my last post.
"why is this an issue?"
Because in the spirit of competition it is my opinion that it is important that the playing field be level. This will make the competition fair in all aspects. We could run with this down an abundance of roads that would take hours.
Do you think it would be fair to let a heavyweight boxer fight a lightweight? And why?
I think it is not fair to let a heavyweight fight a lightweight and not just because the larger heavyweight would destroy the lightweight. But because it would make the playing field unfair and uneven. Now what includes disabled people there?
Lay that one down because for my argument it could'nt be any further off the point.
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Crit40
Posts:2483
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| 05/16/2008 5:28 PM |
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If the lightweight boxer felt the desire and went through qualifying bouts with other heavyweights, and could compete, I ask again, what's the issue?
If the disadvantaged person doesn't care, where is the harm?
Why do they allow mid majors to compete in the NCAA basketball tournament.
Why do DI football programs play DII?
There are certainly questions to the level of competition. Do you have a problem with those examples?
A lot of amateur open wrestling tournaments allow high school kids to compete if they are 18. They might be competing against a 30 year old olympian.
It boils down to choices. If the underdog doesn't care, I don't have a problem with it.
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Counting the Herd one hoof at a time. |
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IrememberDukester
Posts:2404
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| 05/17/2008 1:23 PM |
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Posted By Crit40 on 05/16/2008 3:34 PM It is not fair IMO that he will be allowed to compete against athletes that do not share his disability. It is unfair to him and the athletes that have both legs. I debated most of lunch today around this subject. How is it unfair? You stated in March that you attended the NCAA Wrestling Championships in St. Louis. Did you happen to watch the kid from Arizona State who only had 1 leg. He missed All-America status I believe by one match and he is a freshman. So your position would be that he shouldn't have been able to compete why? Please expound.
Speaking of Arizona State:
The bombshell that blindsided Arizona State wrestling and rocked the sport Tuesday left ripples that reached Iowa.
ASU officials announced that the school will immediately cut three men's sports -- wrestling, tennis and swimming -- in order to save more than $1 million annually in operating costs.
The Sun Devils were scheduled to wrestle at Iowa in November, but the greater concern for those connected to the Hawkeyes is the long-term health of the sport that is being whittled away in the Pac-10.
"To me, there's no program that's totally safe," former Iowa coach Dan Gable said. "Even though I know we're in good shape (at Iowa), it's just a matter of who comes in as an administrator, it's a matter of what emphasis is put on it, it's a matter of who the coach is in the program, it's a matter of how much success you have in the program, it's a matter of a lot of things.
"No program is safe in about any non-revenue sport. I'm concerned about wrestling, but I don't like tennis or swimming getting dropped, either, especially with no notice or time to rally a little bit."
The Sun Devils learned of the decision Tuesday morning.
"There was really no warning," Arizona State 125-pounder Anthony Robles said. "Everybody was shocked. We were all taken by surprise by it, and I'm still in shock. I really don't know what to do for next year."
Robles said Arizona State Athletics Director Lisa Love informed coach Thom Ortiz and his team that the school could reinstate wrestling "if we raise enough money for us to be self-sufficient" as a program. Robles said Love told the team Tuesday morning that she didn't know how much money it would take for reinstatement, but The Arizona Republic reported ASU officials said it would cost $8 million to endow the wrestling program.
The Sun Devils were set to make a trip to Iowa in November for the inaugural Iowa City Duals, a one-day event that will showcase the defending NCAA champion Hawkeyes and three other teams at the Fieldhouse. Iowa was scheduled to wrap up the night with a meet against Arizona State in Carver-Hawkeye Arena.
"I was really excited to go to (Iowa City) and see a packed house and wrestle in front of those fans," said Robles, who was born without a right leg and became a fan favorite this year at the NCAA Championships when he came one victory from earning All-America honors. "I was really excited for that. (The Iowa fans) might not like us very much, but still, it's fun to wrestle in front of them. I've heard stories."
"I think it could still happen," Iowa coach Tom Brands said. "I heard (about ASU's willingness to keep the program if it raises the money) and I've got life in my blood again. I'm not going to say it's easy to raise $8 million -- the problem is whether that's true or not -- but if that's true then you feel pretty good about it. At least there's a chance. You get hit with something that's pretty hard and then all of a sudden there's a way out ... let's rally."
Tuesday's announcement certainly hit the wrestling community hard. It comes on the heels of Oregon's decision to eliminate wrestling at the end of this past season, leaving Oregon State and Stanford as the only two true Pac-10 Conference schools that still offer the sport and 87 programs at the Division I level.
"I'm really frightened for wrestling," said former Iowa State coach Bobby Douglas, who left Arizona State in 1991 to lead the Cyclones. "We don't have that many friends. Wrestling is not a favorite sport of many athletic directors -- probably about three that I have known in the many years that I have been involved. There's only been a handful of athletic directors who have really cared about wrestling, and I think you know who those are; the wrestling budgets of the schools reflect that and the reputation of the schools reflect it. It's unfortunate what happened. I'm deeply saddened by it."
Douglas guided the Sun Devils in 1988 when they became the first team west of the Rocky Mountains to win the NCAA title. Iowa, Oklahoma State and Minnesota have claimed all 20 of the national championships since then.
The Sun Devils have had some recent success, too. They finished in the top 10 three of the last eight years, winding up sixth as recently as 2006. Earlier that season, Arizona State moved into a new practice room that was largely funded by Sunkist Kids Wrestling. Douglas said his craving for better practice facilities was a reason he left the Sun Devils to take over at Iowa State, and he thought the new digs would help Arizona State turn the corner as a program.
Instead, a move that occurred 600 miles northwest of Tempe may have shaped the future for the Sun Devils. Fresno State dropped its wrestling program in 2006, a decision Gable believes tipped the scales in the wrong direction for wrestling on the West Coast.
"The Pac-10 was already on the bubble, so it could go either way," he said. "We needed a break and we didn't get that break. It went the other way, so now it's kind of a domino effect and it's easy to pick on us."
 Another casualty of title IX. The feminists will party tonight |
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egami
Posts:5392
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| 05/19/2008 8:20 AM |
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Posted By Crit40 on 05/16/2008 5:28 PM
If the lightweight boxer felt the desire and went through qualifying bouts with other heavyweights, and could compete, I ask again, what's the issue?
If the disadvantaged person doesn't care, where is the harm?
Why do they allow mid majors to compete in the NCAA basketball tournament.
Why do DI football programs play DII?
There are certainly questions to the level of competition. Do you have a problem with those examples?
A lot of amateur open wrestling tournaments allow high school kids to compete if they are 18. They might be competing against a 30 year old olympian.
It boils down to choices. If the underdog doesn't care, I don't have a problem with it.
To answer the football part of that question, money. |
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Posted By Omahan on 11/04/2008 2:24 PM
I've worked very hard to become your friend egami. |
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Crit40
Posts:2483
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| 05/19/2008 8:20 AM |
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| Yeah, I heard that as well. Not good for the sport of wrestling. |
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Counting the Herd one hoof at a time. |
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egami
Posts:5392
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| 05/19/2008 8:22 AM |
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Posted By Fergie on 05/16/2008 4:50 PM
If you look back on my posts and then take aim with words like discrimination, then I will take my argument to another board.
Please do, crybaby.
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Posted By Omahan on 11/04/2008 2:24 PM
I've worked very hard to become your friend egami. |
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egami
Posts:5392
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| 05/19/2008 8:27 AM |
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Posted By Crit40 on 05/16/2008 4:45 PM
There's a word for that......discrimination.
Dead on. There is little question in my mind this is fair. All he's won is the right to earn a spot on the team, no one is gift-wrapping an Olympic appearance for him.
Imo, if other runners think it's an advantage they should be welcome to amputate their legs and use the devices as well.
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Posted By Omahan on 11/04/2008 2:24 PM
I've worked very hard to become your friend egami. |
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Omahan
Posts:3693
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| 05/19/2008 8:50 AM |
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| Who said anything about winning or losing? |
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Omahan
Posts:3693
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| 05/19/2008 8:52 AM |
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Fergie's argument is clear to me, he's talking about making sure that the competition is fair to ALL involved. I can relate with that.
I don't however see why this guy should'nt be allowed to run if he can compete. |
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egami
Posts:5392
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| 05/19/2008 8:55 AM |
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At least you edited out that "prosperity" comment...
Like I said, it doesn't get any more fair than allowing any athlete the right to amputate their legs and go the prosthetic route. |
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Posted By Omahan on 11/04/2008 2:24 PM
I've worked very hard to become your friend egami. |
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Omahan
Posts:3693
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| 05/19/2008 9:01 AM |
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| If the Celtics win the Eastern Conference Championship I believe that will chop your legs off in some form or fashion...agree? |
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