egami
Posts:5576
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| 10/10/2007 2:54 PM |
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This is getting more and more exposure and obviously the NFL and NCAA rules committees are looking at the topic already for next offseason.
Personally, I don't see the big deal. We've been icing kickers for some time. Some coaches are just getting more gutsy with waiting it out.
Of course, I am old school in some ways....if I were king for a day I'd restore legitimacy to the Fumblerooski. Imo, if you got the nads to lay the ball down then by all means that gamble should have a payoff. |
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Posted By Omahan on 11/04/2008 2:24 PM
I've worked very hard to become your friend egami. |
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Logan
Posts:2525
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| 10/10/2007 3:08 PM |
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| i like the strategy of calling time out right before the ball is snapped. |
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dwight, refuting reality one post at a time. |
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Blackshirt
Posts:607
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| 10/10/2007 8:11 PM |
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I have no problem with the rule.
It will even out. Eventually, some coach is going to give a kicker who missed it a second chance and it'll bite him. |
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"Perhaps the worst thing that can happen is to reach into the refrigerator and come out with something that you cannot identify at all. You literally do not know what it is. Could be meat, could be cake. Usually, at a time like that, I'll bluff. "Honey, is this good?" "Well, what is it?" "I don't know. I've never seen anything like it. It looks like...meatcake!" "Well, smell it." (snort, sniff) "It has absolutely no smell whatsoever!" "It's good! Put it back! Somebody is saving it. It'll turn up in something." Thats what frightens me. That someone will consider it a challenge and use it just because it's in there." -- George Carlin |
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egami
Posts:5576
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| 10/11/2007 9:37 AM |
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I don't have a problem with it either, but I think the discussion merits questioning the practice. I think there is a slight advantage to a coach being able to call the timeout in this situation and I can see the arguement for the fact that this isn't what the rule change was intended for.
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Posted By Omahan on 11/04/2008 2:24 PM
I've worked very hard to become your friend egami. |
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vranged
Posts:2896
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| 10/11/2007 9:45 AM |
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The practice will stop or slow down, as Blackshirt intimated, when the kicker misses -- but a timeout is called, and he gets another chance, and on try #2, wins the game.
If I were a coach, I'd try something different. Have all the defensive players talk about calling a timeout right before the kick, but don't actually do it. That might mess with the kicker more. The psychology of sports is one of the many things that make them so great. |
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After acknowledging that he was desperate, Dwight said "people will resort to saying things they know aren't true when they are desperate." That about sums it up! |
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Crit40
Posts:2602
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| 10/11/2007 9:48 AM |
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| IMO it benefts the kicking team. Imagine if Scott Norwood would have been "iced" in this fashion in a few Super Bowls. Quite frankly Buffalo might not be 0-4 in SB. |
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Counting the Herd one hoof at a time. |
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vranged
Posts:2896
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| 10/11/2007 9:54 AM |
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| I don't think it benefits the kicking team when the kicker makes the long field goal, and has to do it again. That's gotta be a real deflating feeling. |
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After acknowledging that he was desperate, Dwight said "people will resort to saying things they know aren't true when they are desperate." That about sums it up! |
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egami
Posts:5576
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| 10/11/2007 10:05 AM |
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| Statistically it wouldn't favor the kicking team. |
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Posted By Omahan on 11/04/2008 2:24 PM
I've worked very hard to become your friend egami. |
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TheCrusher
Posts:127
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| 10/11/2007 10:55 AM |
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| I think it lacks class, but that is a personal opinion. But I am against a rule change. Someone one does it to ya, just kick their a*s good the next time you play them so it does not come down to a FG. |
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egami
Posts:5576
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| 10/11/2007 11:01 AM |
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How do you think it lacks class?
I am not trying to start an arguement...just curious because this was my initial gut reaction and a buddy of mine and I were talking it over trying to decide where we were on it and I couldn't really rationalize that.
The action certainly has that feel, but I haven't been able to put my finger on something and be able to say it's really that bad. |
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Posted By Omahan on 11/04/2008 2:24 PM
I've worked very hard to become your friend egami. |
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Logan
Posts:2525
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| 10/11/2007 11:03 AM |
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| coaches have been trying to "ice" kickers for years by calling timeouts right before the kick. now it has become a matter of timing as to when the timeout is called. it worked for shanahan and the donkeys a few weeks back against the raiders. |
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dwight, refuting reality one post at a time. |
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Crit40
Posts:2602
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| 10/11/2007 11:11 AM |
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Posted By egami on 10/11/2007 10:05 AM
Statistically it wouldn't favor the kicking team.
Just curious. What are the statistics. How many icings tried vs. worked?
Rather than kicking into a net, the kicker actually gets a crack at the posts. These guys's mindset, has to be that the 1st one is practice.
As I said, Scott Norwood, I'm sure, would have relished a couple "2nd trys".
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Counting the Herd one hoof at a time. |
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Logan
Posts:2525
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| 10/11/2007 11:16 AM |
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| i'll bet the kicker for ball st. would have loved a second chance too. |
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dwight, refuting reality one post at a time. |
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egami
Posts:5576
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| 10/11/2007 11:26 AM |
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Most of the time the retrial of a kick is going to work in favor of the team calling the timeout.
This is exactly why we have people saying "well the first time someone misses the first kick then makes the second...blah, blah".
Statistically, they are more likely to make the first kick that to miss it. Statistically, kickers make more than they miss. While that sounds good on paper...that consequently means, statistically, calling the timeout will work in your favor more than it will bite you. The statistics create a psychological advantage for the opposing team.
And say what you will about kickers mindsets...it's another thing when you're actually standing there in the game doing the kicking. |
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Posted By Omahan on 11/04/2008 2:24 PM
I've worked very hard to become your friend egami. |
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Crit40
Posts:2602
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| 10/11/2007 11:35 AM |
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Posted By egami on 10/11/2007 11:26 AM
Most of the time the retrial of a kick is going to work in favor of the team calling the timeout.
This is exactly why we have people saying "well the first time someone misses the first kick then makes the second...blah, blah".
Statistically, they are more likely to make the first kick that to miss it. Statistically, kickers make more than they miss. While that sounds good on paper...that consequently means, statistically, calling the timeout will work in your favor more than it will bite you. The statistics create a psychological advantage for the opposing team.
And say what you will about kickers mindsets...it's another thing when you're actually standing there in the game doing the kicking.
Blah, blah, blah.....statistically. I ask again, as you are referencing them. What are the statistics?
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Counting the Herd one hoof at a time. |
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egami
Posts:5576
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| 10/11/2007 11:41 AM |
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Posted By Crit40 on 10/11/2007 11:35 AM
Blah, blah, blah.....statistically. I ask again, as you are referencing them. What are the statistics?
I explained it...it's pretty straight forward. I don't have the exact numbers, but I don't need them to know that a) kickers make more than they miss and b) it's more likely a team calling a timeout will win a game on a second miss than they will lose a game on a retry that was missed the first time.
Seriously, if it's not in their advantage then why do they do it? It's not rocket surgery. |
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Posted By Omahan on 11/04/2008 2:24 PM
I've worked very hard to become your friend egami. |
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Logan
Posts:2525
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| 10/11/2007 11:44 AM |
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| if i were a head coach i think it would at least be worth the effort to try it. at the college level the kid is going to be 21 or 22 at the most. even older nfl kickers let little things get into their heads. |
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dwight, refuting reality one post at a time. |
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egami
Posts:5576
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| 10/11/2007 12:53 PM |
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Well, here is a stat for you, 2 of 3 NFL last second icings have resulted in wins for the team calling the timeout.
It's going to be interesting to see how it plays out through the year.
Here is Len Pasuarelli's article: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=3057312
I think his #3 solution is flawed. It resolves that issue, but creates another. |
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Posted By Omahan on 11/04/2008 2:24 PM
I've worked very hard to become your friend egami. |
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Crit40
Posts:2602
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| 10/11/2007 1:04 PM |
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Posted By egami on 10/11/2007 12:53 PM
Well, here is a stat for you, 2 of 3 NFL last second icings have resulted in wins for the team calling the timeout.
It's going to be interesting to see how it plays out through the year.
Here is Len Pasuarelli's article: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=3057312
I think his #3 solution is flawed. It resolves that issue, but creates another.
That's what I'm talking about Midge. Stats! But just because the other team calls the timeout in an attempt to "make the kicker think about it" doesn't necessarily mean that it works more than it doesn't. It is a "last ditch effort" to get into the kickers head, but not a foregone conclusion that statistically it works. Your stats show that, at least thus far 2/3 of the time it works. One more the other way makes it a 50/50 proposition.
My point is that just because YOU say it, doesn't make it gospel. Stats actually make it gospel.
Rocket surgury?  |
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Counting the Herd one hoof at a time. |
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egami
Posts:5576
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| 10/11/2007 1:12 PM |
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Crit, obviously, due to the nature of kickers making it more than missing it, the long term effect is likely to be less than 50% positive outcome for the team calling the timeout.
You don't need concrete statistics to determine everything and this is one of those cases. The reason coaches are doing it is because they know their chances are more likely to give them a win in a second attempt than the liklihood of giving a kicker a second chance to fix a botched first attempt. |
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Posted By Omahan on 11/04/2008 2:24 PM
I've worked very hard to become your friend egami. |
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