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egami
Posts:4990
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| 06/24/2008 7:39 AM |
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No.
I like Schilling, he's one of the few Red Sux I actually like, but come on...just take a look at guys NOT in the HoF that are better than him and I think that makes the case. Besides the obvious fact of what he is set next to a Nolan Ryan, Tom Seaver, Jim Palmer and other greats.
Guys like Fergie Jenkins and Catfish Hunter who got in with some lower voting percentages seem to far outshine Schilling.
Time will tell...
Imo, he belongs in the Hall of Very Good. |
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Posted By Omahan on 06/16/2008 12:28 PM
I am actually desperate today.
Posted By Omahan on 06/16/2008 12:47 PM
They say...people will resort to saying things they know aren't true when they are desperate.
Posted By Omahan on 07/18/2008 1:47 PM
And you have on cue demonstrated what I have hallucinated from day one in regards to you.
Posted by Omahan on 07/23/2008 10:25 AM
I actually created Fergie in part to attack you Crit without you knowing it was me. Some of your takes were so lame that I almost came at you as myself a few time... |
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Crit40
Posts:2216
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| 06/24/2008 10:43 AM |
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| I'm not so sure. With Roger Clemens seemingly out, I think Curt Schilling makes it to the HOF. His pitching stats compare favorably to many others in the Hall already IMO. |
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Counting the Herd one hoof at a time. |
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egami
Posts:4990
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| 06/24/2008 10:48 AM |
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| Like who? I couldn't find any HoF player he was better than... |
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Posted By Omahan on 06/16/2008 12:28 PM
I am actually desperate today.
Posted By Omahan on 06/16/2008 12:47 PM
They say...people will resort to saying things they know aren't true when they are desperate.
Posted By Omahan on 07/18/2008 1:47 PM
And you have on cue demonstrated what I have hallucinated from day one in regards to you.
Posted by Omahan on 07/23/2008 10:25 AM
I actually created Fergie in part to attack you Crit without you knowing it was me. Some of your takes were so lame that I almost came at you as myself a few time... |
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Fergie
Posts:377
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| 06/24/2008 10:58 AM |
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Two key numbers: 3116 & 3.46. 3,116 strikeouts and an ERA of 3.46 over a 20 year career.
Shoo in. |
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egami
Posts:4990
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| 06/24/2008 11:03 AM |
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3116, places him 14th overall. Blyleven is 5th and he's not in.
3.46, places him not even on radar (Top 100) all time ERA.
He's a "Shoo in" though, huh? Just like Pierce is Top 5 SG all time.... |
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Posted By Omahan on 06/16/2008 12:28 PM
I am actually desperate today.
Posted By Omahan on 06/16/2008 12:47 PM
They say...people will resort to saying things they know aren't true when they are desperate.
Posted By Omahan on 07/18/2008 1:47 PM
And you have on cue demonstrated what I have hallucinated from day one in regards to you.
Posted by Omahan on 07/23/2008 10:25 AM
I actually created Fergie in part to attack you Crit without you knowing it was me. Some of your takes were so lame that I almost came at you as myself a few time... |
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Crit40
Posts:2216
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| 06/24/2008 11:08 AM |
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Well it might take some time to compile stats, but Schilling has a better winning percentage than a good share of HOF pitchers. He has more strike outs than a good share of HOF pitchers. He has a better ERA than a handfull of HOF pitchers.....all on fewer games than a good share of HOF pitchers.
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Counting the Herd one hoof at a time. |
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Fergie
Posts:377
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| 06/24/2008 11:10 AM |
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| How many of those guys you mention lasted 20 years. And according to the most recent reports...he might still play. |
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egami
Posts:4990
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| 06/24/2008 11:12 AM |
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Well, he may make it in, I won't be surprised if he does because the MLB HoF is well...anything but a true HoF, imo.
However, you can paint the picture either way, there are a number of guys with arguably better stats that aren't in, like Blyleven...and, at a fundamental level, Crit, how do you let a guy in who never won a Cy Young or MVP voting (granted, the CY is in essence the MVP, but none the less it's possible so I mention it) in the HoF?
I just don't see it...he's very good, but also had a lot of help. I don't consider W/L percentage a major factor, because much of that has to do with the teams you're on too. |
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Posted By Omahan on 06/16/2008 12:28 PM
I am actually desperate today.
Posted By Omahan on 06/16/2008 12:47 PM
They say...people will resort to saying things they know aren't true when they are desperate.
Posted By Omahan on 07/18/2008 1:47 PM
And you have on cue demonstrated what I have hallucinated from day one in regards to you.
Posted by Omahan on 07/23/2008 10:25 AM
I actually created Fergie in part to attack you Crit without you knowing it was me. Some of your takes were so lame that I almost came at you as myself a few time... |
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egami
Posts:4990
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| 06/24/2008 11:14 AM |
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Posted By Fergie on 06/24/2008 11:10 AM
How many of those guys you mention lasted 20 years. And according to the most recent reports...he might still play.
Blyleven did. A lot of guys did, really. Palmer played about 20 years, many of them...
Which, you also bring up a good point, he was in the steroid era...how DID he last that long? Hm...HGH much? Could his vehement outspoken demeanor on the topic be a brash cover up?
Could be. |
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Posted By Omahan on 06/16/2008 12:28 PM
I am actually desperate today.
Posted By Omahan on 06/16/2008 12:47 PM
They say...people will resort to saying things they know aren't true when they are desperate.
Posted By Omahan on 07/18/2008 1:47 PM
And you have on cue demonstrated what I have hallucinated from day one in regards to you.
Posted by Omahan on 07/23/2008 10:25 AM
I actually created Fergie in part to attack you Crit without you knowing it was me. Some of your takes were so lame that I almost came at you as myself a few time... |
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Crit40
Posts:2216
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| 06/24/2008 11:15 AM |
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| Blyleven may still make it, although he allowed more Bases on Balls, HR's, and hits. Schilling was a more controlled, efficient pitcher. Just my two cents. |
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Counting the Herd one hoof at a time. |
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Fergie
Posts:377
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| 06/24/2008 11:17 AM |
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Some points from Sean Deveney of Sporting News that I echo.
1. Take another look at that ERA. Cynics will point out that Schilling's ERA is a modest 3.46. But he was pitching in the heart of the Steroid Era. There is a stat on baseball-reference.com called lgERA, which basically figures what an average pitcher's ERA would have been, adjusting for the combination of parks in which the pitcher played. Over the course of his career, an average pitcher -- throwing in Schilling's circumstances -- would have had an ERA of 4.41. That means Schilling was nearly a full run better than the league average over the course of 20 years. The ERA of a Hall of Famer like Gaylord Perry (3.11) might look nice, but considering the fact that, overall, baseball was a less offensive game when Perry pitched (the lgERA was 3.64), Schilling's ERA is more impressive.
2. Look at those other numbers. Maybe 216 wins isn't all that impressive. But throughout his career, Schilling did two of the most important things a pitcher can do: He got strikeouts and didn't allow walks. His 3,116 strikeouts are 14th all-time. That's more impressive when taken into the context of his low walk rate. Schilling averaged 4.38 strikeouts per walk, the best ratio in modern baseball history. A little credit for that, please.
3. Postseason dominance. This will be presented as one of the hallmarks of Schilling's candidacy, though if you really digest Nos. 1 and 2 on this list, it doesn't need to be -- he's probably deserving even without the playoff resume. Still, Schilling's postseason performances give those voters who are more anecdotal than analytical something to grasp. Think, "bloody sock." Or, just think, 11-2, a 2.23 ERA and three World Series titles.
4. Personality. This might come in as a negative for those who see Schilling as a self-aggrandizing blowhard. Perhaps he is, but when I look at Schilling, I see a guy who has made himself more available to fans -- through his blog, his radio program and his willingness to talk with media members -- than any star player in the history of the sport. Seriously. The Internet age has changed the ability of athletes to interact directly with fans, and few players have taken advantage of that the way Schilling has. We've seen HOF voters punish players who snubbed the media (Eddie Murray and Jim Rice come to mind) during their careers. If you're going to punish the bad, you've got to reward the good. And Schilling has been very good on this count.
5. The bar is set. It's not a good idea to base HOF votes strictly on the standard set by the lowest players already in. Otherwise, every player only would have to be better than Rabbit Maranville to get into the Hall, and no one wants that. But it's not hard to find pitchers in the Hall of Fame now who were not as good as Schilling: Early Wynn, Don Sutton, Jesse Haines, Gaylord Perry, Catfish Hunter and Phil Niekro to name a few. Schilling is on par with the likes of Don Drysdale, Bob Lemon, Robin Roberts, Bob Feller and Juan Marichal. He deserves a spot.
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egami
Posts:4990
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| 06/24/2008 11:23 AM |
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Posted By Crit40 on 06/24/2008 11:15 AM
Blyleven may still make it, although he allowed more Bases on Balls, HR's, and hits. Schilling was a more controlled, efficient pitcher. Just my two cents.
Then that means he is not a "Shoo in" as Dwight stated.
Blyeleven might make it, he might not. TBD.
Just saying he seems to compare more to guys NOT in that those that ARE in from what I've seen. |
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Posted By Omahan on 06/16/2008 12:28 PM
I am actually desperate today.
Posted By Omahan on 06/16/2008 12:47 PM
They say...people will resort to saying things they know aren't true when they are desperate.
Posted By Omahan on 07/18/2008 1:47 PM
And you have on cue demonstrated what I have hallucinated from day one in regards to you.
Posted by Omahan on 07/23/2008 10:25 AM
I actually created Fergie in part to attack you Crit without you knowing it was me. Some of your takes were so lame that I almost came at you as myself a few time... |
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Fergie
Posts:377
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| 06/24/2008 11:24 AM |
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Schilling is a shoo in. I just looked at the list of pitchers already in...he's a shoo in.
Only his personality could prevent it. He didn't do a Rose or a Clemens. He just says things he shouldn't.
You guys do that on here all the time and are allowed in here. Why shouldn't he be allowed into the HOF? |
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egami
Posts:4990
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| 06/24/2008 11:26 AM |
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Posted By Fergie on 06/24/2008 11:17 AM
Some points from Sean Deveney of Sporting News that I echo.
Think for yourself for once...
1. Pitchers were arguably juiced too. We saw more 100MPH fastballs in this era as well
2. Ok, that's nice, but we're talking about HoF, not making excuses
3. Post-season dominance, yet he couldn't dominate during the regular season. Ok, he had great post-seasons, I'll throw him a bone.
4. I don't care about personality, personally.
5. Yet, here we are talking about lowering the bar, it's the MLB HoF, so undoubtedly lowering it is no big deal. |
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Posted By Omahan on 06/16/2008 12:28 PM
I am actually desperate today.
Posted By Omahan on 06/16/2008 12:47 PM
They say...people will resort to saying things they know aren't true when they are desperate.
Posted By Omahan on 07/18/2008 1:47 PM
And you have on cue demonstrated what I have hallucinated from day one in regards to you.
Posted by Omahan on 07/23/2008 10:25 AM
I actually created Fergie in part to attack you Crit without you knowing it was me. Some of your takes were so lame that I almost came at you as myself a few time... |
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Fergie
Posts:377
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| 06/24/2008 11:28 AM |
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| Personality is a big deal. I am a huge Eddie Murray fan. Anyone remember his situation? |
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egami
Posts:4990
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| 06/24/2008 11:30 AM |
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It might be in your book, it's not in mine.
Puckett would be a good reason why it's not. |
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Posted By Omahan on 06/16/2008 12:28 PM
I am actually desperate today.
Posted By Omahan on 06/16/2008 12:47 PM
They say...people will resort to saying things they know aren't true when they are desperate.
Posted By Omahan on 07/18/2008 1:47 PM
And you have on cue demonstrated what I have hallucinated from day one in regards to you.
Posted by Omahan on 07/23/2008 10:25 AM
I actually created Fergie in part to attack you Crit without you knowing it was me. Some of your takes were so lame that I almost came at you as myself a few time... |
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Fergie
Posts:377
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| 06/24/2008 11:44 AM |
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The perception of the player in the media does have an impact on the voters for enshrinement to the Hall of Fame. Eddie Murray was proof. Eddie was percieved during his career as being moody & arrogant. When actually he was an introvert and a man of few words. Then of course race became a factor in his career.
But they couldn't dispell his numbers and how he was one of the greatest clutch hitters ever. It took longer than it should've but Eddie is in the hall. Many believe his perception created by the media cost him votes.
I happen to agree. So IMO, personality does count. And, it just might cost Schilling a couple of years wait. |
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egami
Posts:4990
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| 06/24/2008 11:50 AM |
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| Again, I know you don't read well, so I'll repeat....I do not care about personality. And, I didn't say "perception" doesn't matter...no question it will impact voters, but we aren't talking about Eddie Murray here anyway, worst case he pissed some people off with his political statements, most likely. So, in the end, it won't be a major factor for him. |
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Posted By Omahan on 06/16/2008 12:28 PM
I am actually desperate today.
Posted By Omahan on 06/16/2008 12:47 PM
They say...people will resort to saying things they know aren't true when they are desperate.
Posted By Omahan on 07/18/2008 1:47 PM
And you have on cue demonstrated what I have hallucinated from day one in regards to you.
Posted by Omahan on 07/23/2008 10:25 AM
I actually created Fergie in part to attack you Crit without you knowing it was me. Some of your takes were so lame that I almost came at you as myself a few time... |
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vranged
Posts:2594
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| 06/24/2008 11:52 AM |
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Schilling is far from a shoo in. If you think he's a HOF'er, that's one thing, and certainly debatable. BUt to state something undeniably false like he's a sure-thing just exposes you again for how little you know about sports.
In my estimation, he was the Jack Morris of his generation. Solid, but unspectacular regular season stats, followed up with incredible post-season performances. If my memory serves me, Jack hasn't come close to getting in.
I wouldn't be upset if Schilling got in, but I certainly wouldn't advocate it. THat's only b/c I'm one of those people who think it should be reserved for the cream of the crop. Schilling falls a bit shot, in my view (but this isn't one I'd argue vehemently against -- he is one of the defining baseball personalities of the last decade, and was as clutch as they come.) |
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After acknowledging that he was desperate, Dwight said "people will resort to saying things they know aren't true when they are desperate." That about sums it up! |
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Fergie
Posts:377
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| 06/24/2008 11:56 AM |
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Curt Schilling is a shoo in Hall of Famer. His personality traits that have caused him to sling words like vranged and egami. (like blithering idiots) May possibly cost him a couple of years.
Other than that, he is a shoo in. When you are sitting at your mother's house watching the induction ceremony --- remember you heard it here first.
egami, your rants sometimes are inexcusable. Misery to say the least. Kirby Puckett? |
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