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egami
Posts:5397
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| 03/12/2008 8:15 AM |
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So, occasionally I waste valuable minutes of my life to listen to a podcast and be reminded why listening to Matt is so painful..
At any rate, the crux of the issue for the "pro" crowd still seems to be largely this emotional based attachment to having the series.
The website for the stadium, at best, shows a questionable rough outline of how the revenue will be generated.
I think ultimately this thing will get pushed through. TPTB are obviously pushing for this. The crowd that is against it, which on paper has a seemingly reasonable case, seems disorganized and unable to garner support outside of message boards and call in shows, which gets nothing done.
But listening to Matt's defense...his arguments were:
- well a lot has changed
That's empty rhetoric. What the hell kind of meaningless defense is that? Oh and...
- two year extension by caller Mike
First off, Matt. His point was a 2 yr extension. You try to counter argue "well, you already have it for 2 more years". Um, no, not what the caller said...
He said rather than the propsed 5 year extension he said all you need is 2 of those years to give time to build a proposal to garner community support versus shoving it down their throat.
That's a valid position, but as normal Matt's emotion overtakes logic and he gets short with the caller and rushed him off the air.
Anyway, I'll have to listen to the rest of the callers and see if anyone can produce a logical point, not an emotional one, that demonstrates this is truly a good idea fiscally.
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Posted By Omahan on 11/04/2008 2:24 PM
I've worked very hard to become your friend egami. |
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Bugeater
Posts:971
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| 03/12/2008 9:14 AM |
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At any rate, the crux of the issue for the "pro" crowd still seems to be largely this emotional based attachment to having the series.
Bingo. That's the argument that everyone keeps throwing in my face as well, yet no one has been able to tell me exactly how Omaha will suffer if the CWS goes elsewhere. The notion that this event "defines" the city and is important enough that we need to build a $130M stadium just doesn't fly with me. The height of hypocrisy is reached when the "pro" starts throwing around the "uninformed" word towards those who are opposed, seeing that there are MANY unanswered questions yet involving this deal. Another problem with the opposition is that most of it is based on the "Save Rosenblatt" camp, and yes they are an unorganized bunch, just listen to the segment with the Jason Smith interview on Matt's show yesterday. He made a complete fool of himself.
My biggest bone of contention at this point is that the "pro" crowd keeps bringing up how this is so important to downtown revitalization, but cannot seem to explain how it's going to help if the stadium doesn't have a full time tenant. They seem to assume the Royals playing there is a slam-dunk, and it seems to me it's far from that, not to mention hardly anyone goes to see them as it is now. CU? It seems there are NCAA rules in place that would prevent them from being a full time tenant in a stadium that hosts the CWS. A two week event isn't going to make a significant impact. But no, I'm the one who's uninformed. And on top of all of that, Matt said something yesterday about the new stadium being expandable, I'd like to know where in the hell the money is going to come from when the NCAA decides they want us to increase capacity.
In the end, you are correct, it's going to be politics as usual and this will get pushed through simply because no one wants their political legacy to be that they're the ones who lets the CWS get away. |
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quiotu
Posts:7
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| 03/12/2008 10:51 AM |
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Look, I'm not a regular around here, but I can at least make a decent point to how the downtown ballpark will generate more revenue and create more action downtown.
It's already been said many times that the CWS in various ways makes some $35 million in revenue for Omaha. You can pretty much guarantee that if you had more to do, more places to go around the ballpark, you'd generate more revenue. Well, to be honest, there's nothing to do in south Omaha. You have the zoo, Zesto's and that's about it. The Beer Gardens had to be created just so there was SOMETHING to do around the area.
Having the CWS downtown will be different, but it will generate way more money. Instead of people RVing, they'll be in hotels nearby. The clubs and restaurants around the area will flourish during that time. I wouldn't be surprised if the revenue jumped by 50% once the CWS starts playing downtown.
No one can deny that Rosenblatt has a lot of history and tradition. But I don't think anyone can deny that downtown is a much more profitable place for the CWS, either. |
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Bugeater
Posts:971
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| 03/12/2008 11:23 AM |
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Posted By quiotu on 03/12/2008 10:51 AM
Look, I'm not a regular around here, but I can at least make a decent point to how the downtown ballpark will generate more revenue and create more action downtown.
It's already been said many times that the CWS in various ways makes some $35 million in revenue for Omaha. You can pretty much guarantee that if you had more to do, more places to go around the ballpark, you'd generate more revenue. Well, to be honest, there's nothing to do in south Omaha. You have the zoo, Zesto's and that's about it. The Beer Gardens had to be created just so there was SOMETHING to do around the area.
Having the CWS downtown will be different, but it will generate way more money. Instead of people RVing, they'll be in hotels nearby. The clubs and restaurants around the area will flourish during that time. I wouldn't be surprised if the revenue jumped by 50% once the CWS starts playing downtown.
No one can deny that Rosenblatt has a lot of history and tradition. But I don't think anyone can deny that downtown is a much more profitable place for the CWS, either.
Sorry, I have a hard time believing downtown is suddenly going to flourish because of a two week event.
I'm also finding hard to give a sh*t that some restaurants and hotels are going to cash in once a year. As I've said before, maybe they should buck up for the new stadium and then the mayor can use the revenue streams that he's planning on paying for it with to address some of the city's more pressing needs. |
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egami
Posts:5397
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| 03/12/2008 11:35 AM |
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Posted By quiotu on 03/12/2008 10:51 AM
Look, I'm not a regular around here, but I can at least make a decent point to how the downtown ballpark will generate more revenue and create more action downtown.
It's already been said many times that the CWS in various ways makes some $35 million in revenue for Omaha. You can pretty much guarantee that if you had more to do, more places to go around the ballpark, you'd generate more revenue. Well, to be honest, there's nothing to do in south Omaha. You have the zoo, Zesto's and that's about it. The Beer Gardens had to be created just so there was SOMETHING to do around the area.
Having the CWS downtown will be different, but it will generate way more money. Instead of people RVing, they'll be in hotels nearby. The clubs and restaurants around the area will flourish during that time. I wouldn't be surprised if the revenue jumped by 50% once the CWS starts playing downtown.
No one can deny that Rosenblatt has a lot of history and tradition. But I don't think anyone can deny that downtown is a much more profitable place for the CWS, either.
First off, I don't buy that number. Just because I've yet to see the detail behind it, so I am not accepting that at face value, but maybe you can post a link to validate it for me.
However, let's take that number for a second an assume it's accurate.
So, we have $35M coming into Omaha once per year. Great!
Now, we've seen the numbers to build the park. We know what the numbers are to maintain it, at least as projected. However, what hasn't been shown is how the funds are going to be derived without impacting the citizens of Omaha so that they aren't footing the bill and the revenue streams from the increase do.
You see, there is a problem when you invest in something this colossal and promise not to raise taxes. That problem arises in delivering the promise. And when I say deliver that promise I don't mean by saying "we won't raise property taxes" and then sneaking in some other way to pull revenue from the local economy.
If this happens, and it's a valid concern, then all you are doing is cost shifting. You are taking money from the tax payers and giving it to businesses for the sake of the sentimental value of having the CWS. |
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Posted By Omahan on 11/04/2008 2:24 PM
I've worked very hard to become your friend egami. |
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Omahan
Posts:3699
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| 03/12/2008 11:50 AM |
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Rosenblatt is and always will be a part of Omaha. However, it is run down and is becoming quite antiquated. So without typing anything else I think I can speak for us all that Rosenblatt is not the solution.
I would also add that there are many other areas in Omaha besides the area that it is in. Just because its moving doesn't mean the powers that be are abandoning Omaha...they're just moving to a different part of it.
Recommending the new arena be placed somewhere near the Qwest center is fiscally and attractively feasable because there is both space for the stadium/parking and it would further enhance an already enhanced downtown Omaha.
And if Omaha really loved their Royals they would go to the games. The attendance at the games is embarrassingly low even now at the Rosenblatt Stadium, it is very possible and even likely that the New Stadium would generate interest in the Royals based on the experience of enjoying the new stadium. (Example: Creighton's move from Civic Auditorium to Qwest Center boosted attendance greatly for the same level of basketball)
My big concern is to retain the College World Series. Granted, it may cater to outsiders, but its a nice revenue stream for the city of Omaha and gives a window for the rest of the country to get a look at the city. If you ask anyone in the country to name 3 things they know about Omaha I would be willing to bet that at least one of them would be the College World Series. It would be devastating to lose that, not just from an emotional standpoint but Omaha has a responsibility of keeping established money in Omaha. \
It makes perfect dollars and sense to me. Bring on the New Stadium!
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egami
Posts:5397
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| 03/12/2008 11:53 AM |
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Posted By Omahan on 03/12/2008 11:50 AM
My big concern is to retain the College World Series.
Exactly, just like every other emotion-based argument for the cause.
I have yet to see a good fiscal argument supporting it.
No one is arguing that from a "feel good" perspective it's the wrong thing to do. So you can stop beating the "feel good" drum. |
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Posted By Omahan on 11/04/2008 2:24 PM
I've worked very hard to become your friend egami. |
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Bugeater
Posts:971
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| 03/12/2008 11:54 AM |
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That is shining example of how brainwashed many people are in this city regarding this issue. This guy is just like the sheep over at eomaha forums who think we're getting a good deal and if you dare mention the thought of the CWS leaving they treat it as an act of blasphemy. They somehow think all of the revenue is an example of ROI, and it's not unless that revenue is paying for stadium and directly benefiting the city in some way. $1.8M in additional tax revenue from this event isn't going to even come close to paying off the bonds for this facility.
Nevertheless, any opposition is futile as this is going to get done. Those who oppose it can only find solace in the fact that when taxes are inevitably raised we get to say we told you so. |
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Omahan
Posts:3699
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| 03/12/2008 12:00 PM |
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You can hammer that emotional angle to death and it only rings true in some aspects.
You neglect lending creedence to the annual revenue from the tournament.
You neglect lending merit to the thousands of eyes that lay on Omaha for that short period of time.
You neglect lending consideration to the millions of eyes that view Omaha through the camera lense from all over the world during that span.
I understand your fiscal arguement and that you want tangible evidence of exactly/precisely how this thing makes out for the best for Omaha. I wish it were that simple.
IMO, it makes sense. And actually for me it makes most sense from a monetary angle. Omaha needs the facelift. Omaha needs to keep the CWS. Omaha needs to show the world that they are growing and planting seeds for growth.
You want a blueprint of dollars & cents, pro's & con's. Well, goodluck. I have taken a hard look at some of the prelimenary plans. I can't say I agree with all of it but if I lived in Omaha and passionately disagreed I would take action of some sort.
Impeaching Fahey is the most ridiculous thought I've witnessed in many years.
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Omahan
Posts:3699
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| 03/12/2008 12:04 PM |
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Posted By Bugeater on 03/12/2008 11:54 AM
Those who oppose it can only find solace in the fact that when taxes are inevitably raised we get to say we told you so.
We'll always differ on this one Bugeater. I say what is wrong with the city paying for a stadium that not only returns revenue into the city but also creates revenue via attraction?
Why is it so devastating for taxpayer money to be spent bettering the community that generates it?
Raising of taxes is commonplace. If your neck hairs stand up for taxes going upward then I'd bet they stand up for road rage, solicitation and property costs too.
Translation: Welcome to everyday life. I'm not saying you have to accept it either. Just that what you are screaming has been occuring since the beggining of time.
Taxes will always rise before they fall.
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egami
Posts:5397
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| 03/12/2008 12:15 PM |
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Posted By Omahan on 03/12/2008 12:00 PM
You want a blueprint of dollars & cents, pro's & con's. Well, goodluck.
Wrong, I am asking for a very simple, credible overview of how the revenue is not going to raise taxes to local residents.
Many of dollars that the pro-stadium site lists are purely speculative dollars.
This isn't like the Qwest. The Qwest you at least had rent lined up. Here you're building a multi-million dollar facility hedging bets that it'll pay off with no real evidence to back much of that "fictitious" funding up.
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Posted By Omahan on 11/04/2008 2:24 PM
I've worked very hard to become your friend egami. |
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Omahan
Posts:3699
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| 03/12/2008 12:20 PM |
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Call the accountants at Johnson, Smith & Varney.
The firm from Washington DC that did the study based much of it's information off of similar stadiums built in other cities. What else do you morons want?
There is no gaurantees. I listened to Fahey's speech regarding this. He never stated taxes would not be raised. He said costs would be creatively spread out so that no one area is hit too hard.
Best he or anyone could do. |
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egami
Posts:5397
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| 03/12/2008 12:24 PM |
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Emotion, emotion, emotion...how about some logic and practical, realistic speculation? How about some honesty in the economic impact that this could have if they can't book enough tenants to cover the revenue they are citing they need?
I know there "is no guarantees".
That's exactly the point. Write up and address your contingency plan when those guarantees don't pan out. |
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Posted By Omahan on 11/04/2008 2:24 PM
I've worked very hard to become your friend egami. |
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Omahan
Posts:3699
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| 03/12/2008 12:28 PM |
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How about you presenting some logic egami? Show me the numbers that make you critical?
Show me the numbers that you have dug up that make this thing not fiscally responsible for Omaha?
Until then, shut the fvck up about something you have very little knowledge about. |
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Omahan
Posts:3699
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| 03/12/2008 12:29 PM |
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| citing not siting |
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egami
Posts:5397
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| 03/12/2008 12:31 PM |
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Posted By Omahan on 03/12/2008 12:28 PM
How about you presenting some logic egami? Show me the numbers that make you critical?
Show me the numbers that you have dug up that make this thing not fiscally responsible for Omaha?
Until then, shut the fvck up about something you have very little knowledge about.
I already did. They are in the other thread where you logically flailed about.
I also directly referred to them in this thread. Go to the pro-stadium site and look at the numbers I am referencing here. I shouldn't need to relink it for you.
And I said "citing", thanks. |
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Posted By Omahan on 11/04/2008 2:24 PM
I've worked very hard to become your friend egami. |
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Omahan
Posts:3699
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| 03/12/2008 12:33 PM |
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| You switched it very quickly. Lay it out or shut up. |
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egami
Posts:5397
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| 03/12/2008 12:48 PM |
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I'm not going to shut up. The burden of proof is on those who want to build the stadium, period. The facts are undeniable:
- The Mayor said he wasn't raising taxes for residents to fund the stadium and is posturing that there will be no affect on resident taxes.
- There is a huge financial obligation to be met...much of which are largely speculative dollar amounts.
$140M, $12M of which are still dollars to be paid toward Rosenblatt.
Private contributions, assuming guaranteed are $43M.
Stadium revenue, projected at $38M.
Public funding, $60M.
Now, it's not rocket science that ALL of the stadium revenue is projected, guesstimated and not guaranteed. That's over 1/4 of the cost.
And even the $60M in revenue generation from hotel/car rental fees isn't 100% scientific, but we can pretend like the are.
This all based on a 20+ year amortization schedule. You don't have a 20 year commitment out of the NCAA yet. And that's a lot of years to be guesstimating revenue for the stadium on a subjective level with not a single guaranteed tenant.
Also, as has been pointed out, no one has explained where the former Keno revenue funded programs are now going to get their money from. And that's a good point...you're taking a $28M revenue stream that was being funneled somewhere and now it's gone. Those missing dollars are going to all of the sudden not be needed?
Oh, and you'll notice the 20 - 25 year amortization footnote in the executive summary states: Requires Tenant Extensions
Hm, nice considering they don't even have tenants yet. There are some BIG holes that have to be filled and right now they are being filled with BIG assumptions. |
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Posted By Omahan on 11/04/2008 2:24 PM
I've worked very hard to become your friend egami. |
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egami
Posts:5397
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| 03/12/2008 12:51 PM |
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Also, I like this little footnote:
Performed Local Public Funding Analysis
- Hotel Tax
- Car Rental Tax
- Keno Funds
- Sales Tax
- Entertainment Tax
- Sewer Funds
- Other
What? Sewer funds? Sounds a lot like a local fund to me. Same with Entertainment Tax to a large degree. And, what exactly falls under Other.
There are red flags all over this. |
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Posted By Omahan on 11/04/2008 2:24 PM
I've worked very hard to become your friend egami. |
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vranged
Posts:2813
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| 03/12/2008 1:15 PM |
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Sorry I'm late for my daily "b1tchslapping Dwight" session. Thanks for taking over for me, egami.
You throw facts at Dwight, and he has no way to oppose them. It's entertaining. |
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After acknowledging that he was desperate, Dwight said "people will resort to saying things they know aren't true when they are desperate." That about sums it up! |
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