egami
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| 02/04/2008 10:29 AM |
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Posted By Crit40 on 02/04/2008 8:36 AM Posted By egami on 02/04/2008 8:29 AM
All you crybabies over Spygate need to seriously get a clue on the history of "signs stealing"...
The fact is that sign stealing is legal and the Patriots simply got busted on a technicality of the rule that Belichick was trying to work around.
Everyone does it. It has been done, it will be done and quite frankly if Arlen Specter gets any more involved than a cursory inquiry it's ridiculous. You mean the part about not being able to tape them, so you can study them over and over and over and over and over again until you know you've got them?
We changed our signals mid-game in High School, Crit. I am sure it has probably occurred to NFL level coaches.
I've heard enough former players talk about this to realize what a crock of an excuse it is.
Not to mention that fact that one of the NYJ coaches waved AT the camera while be filmed, so no...I fail to see the issue other than the actual breaking of the rule. Anyone who believes they got any kind of significant boost from this has yet to demonstrate it logically in way that hasn't been rebutted by many NFL and former NFL players and coaches. |
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Posted By Omahan on 11/04/2008 2:24 PM
I've worked very hard to become your friend egami. |
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Crit40
Posts:2483
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| 02/04/2008 10:44 AM |
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I was merely pointing out the technicality of the rule. |
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Counting the Herd one hoof at a time. |
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vranged
Posts:2813
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| 02/04/2008 10:50 AM |
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| If it's not a competitive advantage, why do they do it? If they don't gain anything from it, why risk breaking the rule? If there's no way to benefit, why is there a rule against it? |
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After acknowledging that he was desperate, Dwight said "people will resort to saying things they know aren't true when they are desperate." That about sums it up! |
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vranged
Posts:2813
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| 02/04/2008 10:50 AM |
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| If it's not a competitive advantage, why do they do it? If they don't gain anything from it, why risk breaking the rule? If there's no way to benefit, why is there a rule against it? |
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After acknowledging that he was desperate, Dwight said "people will resort to saying things they know aren't true when they are desperate." That about sums it up! |
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egami
Posts:5397
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| 02/04/2008 10:57 AM |
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| I didn't say they don't gain anything from it. |
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Posted By Omahan on 11/04/2008 2:24 PM
I've worked very hard to become your friend egami. |
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vranged
Posts:2813
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| 02/04/2008 11:05 AM |
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Okay, I'll rephrase, since you always seem to mince words:
If they don't get a significant boost, why do it? If they don't get a significant boost, why risk breaking the rule? If there's no significant boost in doing it why is there a rule against it?
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After acknowledging that he was desperate, Dwight said "people will resort to saying things they know aren't true when they are desperate." That about sums it up! |
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egami
Posts:5397
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| 02/04/2008 11:10 AM |
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I don't really care why...until someone can demonstrate how it's really a big deal.
As many, many NFL and former NFL personnel have stated...teams should already be imploring measures to circumvent any advantage this may be giving them.
The burden of proof isn't on me to speculate why it might be when the majority of professionals are generally in agreement otherwise. |
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Posted By Omahan on 11/04/2008 2:24 PM
I've worked very hard to become your friend egami. |
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tomahawk
Posts:2
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| 02/04/2008 11:12 AM |
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Time out or not or what ever excuses my come out..GO GIANTS! Go NFC! Hey the Pats simply got beat by a better team, who knows maybe if these two teams played 10 times and this would be the Giants only win..well, we will never know will we? I love this!  |
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vranged
Posts:2813
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| 02/04/2008 11:14 AM |
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Knowing what plays are going to be run isn't a signficiant boost? Because that was the quote when the story was reported (and I'm paraphrasing): "They kept guessing what plays we were gonna be run. Nobody can guess right everytime, but they were."
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After acknowledging that he was desperate, Dwight said "people will resort to saying things they know aren't true when they are desperate." That about sums it up! |
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egami
Posts:5397
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| 02/04/2008 11:25 AM |
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I understand what they are claiming...yet, there is no proof that that biased source is indeed accurate. And, frankly, it doesn't make sense when you consider the fact that Goodell himself stated the Jets coaches were waving at the cameras while being taped. If you KNOW you're being taped why aren't you taking precautions to change your signs? It doesn't add up.
If the Jets weren't imploring standard techniques...then that's their problem. If you are THAT redundant you don't video equipment to get calls down. |
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Posted By Omahan on 11/04/2008 2:24 PM
I've worked very hard to become your friend egami. |
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vranged
Posts:2813
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| 02/04/2008 11:45 AM |
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| The reason it resonates with me so much has less to do with the act itself, and more to do with my stance on the steroid issue -- and its contrast and similarities to spygate. I've defended steroid users (which looks and feels weird when I type it) for a lot of the same reasons that people now disregard on the spygate issue, i.e. you don't know what kind of advantage you get, everyone was doing it. etc. I know you, specifically, don't rail the steroiders like others, but I don't think the public can have it both ways. |
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After acknowledging that he was desperate, Dwight said "people will resort to saying things they know aren't true when they are desperate." That about sums it up! |
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Omahan
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| 02/04/2008 12:03 PM |
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- Steroids are synthetic drugs used to improve muscle growth, strength, and power.
- Visually tape recording or having a individual determine a anothers team's signals IMO should be prevented by the team being taped.
That's what Jaworski was talking about and that is why I agree with him.
- Steroids has proven to have health effects that will endanger the user.
- Signal reading has been in football since Hank Stram used to cover up his mouth to send in plays.
I haven't personally "railed" the steroid guys, but comparing steroids to spygate is not "in the real" realm IMHO.
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Omahan
Posts:3699
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| 02/04/2008 12:10 PM |
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EXAMPLE:
In Boxing, if a fighter were to have been injected with analbolic steroids and came out and destroyed his opponent but yet subsequently died later of his usage. Or if he did it to overcome injury and suffered side effects that made him attack his wife or kids. It happens.
In Boxing, if a fighter were to have a "bug" planted in his opponents corner so he could hear every word of strategy that they were plotting. Do you really think that is anything more than strategical knowledge that can be overcome by the raw and innovative science of thinking on the fly?
Steriods kill, lip reading gives a team a 1 up that they have been experiencing every since the start of football.
I don't understand why this is such an issue.
Besides, most coaches don't script. They get a "feel" for the game and use whatever has been working on that day. So coverages and formations would change. |
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vranged
Posts:2813
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| 02/04/2008 12:55 PM |
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| Steroids v. Spygate obviously aren't the same thing. But the defenders of each use similar arguments to support their position. That's the similarity I'm talking about. And, they're both cheating. |
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After acknowledging that he was desperate, Dwight said "people will resort to saying things they know aren't true when they are desperate." That about sums it up! |
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Crit40
Posts:2483
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| 02/04/2008 1:04 PM |
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Not to mention that fact that one of the NYJ coaches waved AT the camera while be filmed,
If you KNOW you're being taped why aren't you taking precautions to change your signs? It doesn't add up.
I might be out of touch here, but are you suggesting the videographer identified himself as an employee of the Patriot organization and the coaches were still waving into the camera. OR might they have thought it was someone else? NFL films? Local News? The Joker from Batman? |
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Counting the Herd one hoof at a time. |
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Crit40
Posts:2483
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| 02/04/2008 1:07 PM |
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| Here's my opinion. It's one thing to try to figure out signals during a game. It's quite another to video tape them and study them for a week prior to the game. |
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Counting the Herd one hoof at a time. |
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Blackshirt
Posts:586
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| 02/04/2008 1:36 PM |
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The only link with the steroid issue is this.
Barry Bonds was arguably the best player in the game when he started using. He didn't need to cheat, but he did.
The Patriots were already one of the best teams in the league. They didn't need to cheat, but they did.
This whole thing could really have gone away of Goodell hadn't stupidly destroyed the tapes.
That being said, is this really what Arlen Specter should be worried about.
"Iraq? No way. Health care? Screw that. I want to find out that the Patriots taped the Eagles in that Super Bowl! Make them give the Eagles the Lombardi Trophy! Give the Eagles the Lombardi Trophy!!!" |
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"Perhaps the worst thing that can happen is to reach into the refrigerator and come out with something that you cannot identify at all. You literally do not know what it is. Could be meat, could be cake. Usually, at a time like that, I'll bluff. "Honey, is this good?" "Well, what is it?" "I don't know. I've never seen anything like it. It looks like...meatcake!" "Well, smell it." (snort, sniff) "It has absolutely no smell whatsoever!" "It's good! Put it back! Somebody is saving it. It'll turn up in something." Thats what frightens me. That someone will consider it a challenge and use it just because it's in there." -- George Carlin |
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vranged
Posts:2813
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| 02/04/2008 1:46 PM |
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I don't think that's the only link. People defending both have stated the following:
1. Everyone is doing it (stealing signals v. taking steroids), so it's not that big of a deal.
2. Is the benefit of it (stealing signals v. taking steroids) really that substantial?
3. No concrete evidence (the Rams tapes v. a positive steroid test for many accused). |
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After acknowledging that he was desperate, Dwight said "people will resort to saying things they know aren't true when they are desperate." That about sums it up! |
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egami
Posts:5397
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| 02/04/2008 1:56 PM |
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Posted By Crit40 on 02/04/2008 1:07 PM
Here's my opinion. It's one thing to try to figure out signals during a game. It's quite another to video tape them and study them for a week prior to the game.
I agree, but it's relatively accepted by many, many players and former coaches that any team can circumvent this by switching up their signals.
I think what you are pointing out is the distinction in the rule. However, I don't think there is any real evidence to suggest it really did help the Pats significantly.
We just don't know and we will likely never know. What we do know is that there are standard, simple counter-measures to overcome this that should already be in place.
Honestly, I'd have a bigger question if they were actually videotaping games against other teams and such. |
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Posted By Omahan on 11/04/2008 2:24 PM
I've worked very hard to become your friend egami. |
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Omahan
Posts:3699
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| 02/04/2008 2:39 PM |
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Spygate is not recognized as legitimate because those that know football refuse to grant it any levity.
It wreaks of conspiracy. They have banned Pete Rose from baseball - now that is a topic with some substance. "Hey he peeked at my clipboard!" won't fly with the guys that understand the game. |
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