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Crit40
Posts:2338
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vranged
Posts:2679
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| 07/23/2007 10:45 AM |
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I have not heard a practical, legitimate reason why you shouldn't compare slaughtering cows to dogfighting. Look at the end result. They're the same -- dead, abused animals.
Ever had veal? Ever seen how it's made? You think that's "humane"? |
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After acknowledging that he was desperate, Dwight said "people will resort to saying things they know aren't true when they are desperate." That about sums it up! |
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Crit40
Posts:2338
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| 07/23/2007 11:20 AM |
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Posted By vranged on 07/23/2007 10:45 AM
I have not heard a practical, legitimate reason why you shouldn't compare slaughtering cows to dogfighting. Look at the end result. They're the same -- dead, abused animals.
Ever had veal? Ever seen how it's made? You think that's "humane"?
I know what veal is and I do not eat it.
If you are suggesting we run dogs through a "doggy steak plant", instantly kill them, hang their carsuss to cure, cut them for meat, package them and sell it to the consumer for human consumption, then the two examples would be equal.
Your horse racing and Iditerod examples are much better examples.....but in each of those cases, neither are making the animal enraged and are training them to kill another animal.
Maybe Cock Fighting?
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Counting the Herd one hoof at a time. |
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vranged
Posts:2679
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| 07/23/2007 11:39 AM |
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| I'm talking about the treatment of the animals. It doesn't have to be the exact same thing to make the analogy work. Of course we don't run dogs through steak plants -- that doesn't make the treatment of cows v. dogs any less comparable, for purposes of this discussion. |
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After acknowledging that he was desperate, Dwight said "people will resort to saying things they know aren't true when they are desperate." That about sums it up! |
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DMan
Posts:0
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| 07/23/2007 11:41 AM |
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| I get the soceital reference. And wholeheartedly agree! Misconceptions about what is right and what is wrong in Today's America has much to be questioned. Horseracing is to some degree in-humane. They do whip and kick the horse. My uncle was a trainer at Aksarben in the 60's and 70's. Hell, he used to smack them in the head to get them saddled. (At least the ones that required it) But descretion must be implemented here. Horses are very large and powerful animals. Hitting one with a 2x4 is like popping a dog briskly with a newspaper. So whipping and kicking them to get them to do something that is natural and fun to them (running) is not only humane but seems even natural to what they are put on earth for, to run! Asking any animal to savagely fight to death does not compare to running, jumping or lining them up for slaughter in a constructive manner. So let's ask the horse if he minds being whipped and kicked and then the cow if he had his choice between slaughter death or fighting til death. Cows are rather lazy, lifeless animals from jumpstreet, I think you might lose that arguement. I'd bet they would line up fot the cattle truck. |
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Logan
Posts:2525
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| 07/23/2007 12:51 PM |
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Posted By vranged on 07/23/2007 11:39 AM
I'm talking about the treatment of the animals. It doesn't have to be the exact same thing to make the analogy work. Of course we don't run dogs through steak plants -- that doesn't make the treatment of cows v. dogs any less comparable, for purposes of this discussion.
one point i will make in contrary to your analogy is that butchering cattle is legal while dog fighting is illegal. the cattle are not forced to brutalize each other prior to being butchered. a spike is put into their heads and they are dead in a matter of minutes. to me butchering for food and fighting for entertainment are two entirely different arenas. |
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dwight, refuting reality one post at a time. |
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Crit40
Posts:2338
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| 07/23/2007 12:52 PM |
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On a more constructive note.....Slaughtering cattle or hogs is a highly scrutinized and regulated industry......but LEGAL.
Dog fighting...not so much. Apparently you can go to prison for up to 6 years if caught participating in this ILLEGAL activity.
I think Mike Vick knew he was "involved" with an ILLEGAL act. If he were part owner in Nebraska Beef, I think he would skate.
Logical that one is ok and the other is not? That is a societal issue. P.E.T.A. members would argue on your side......which I'm not sure that's a good thing. Irregardless, in life we all make choices. We can either knowingly participate in an ILLEGAL act, or not. Vick chose....and now he needs to deal with the consequences, just as I would have to if I drove a car drunk and killed someone.
Character, making good choices, doing what's right and avoiding doing what's wrong? Listen, this isn't the first "bad choice" Mike Vick has made in his young lifetime.
I'm not suggesting we hang the guy, but if we, the legal system, the NFL, and the Atlanta Falcons give the guy a "pass" on this, what does that tell our youth and fans about what's right and wrong? |
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Counting the Herd one hoof at a time. |
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vranged
Posts:2679
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| 07/23/2007 1:29 PM |
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| repeat |
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After acknowledging that he was desperate, Dwight said "people will resort to saying things they know aren't true when they are desperate." That about sums it up! |
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vranged
Posts:2679
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| 07/23/2007 1:34 PM |
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I know it's illegal. That's one of the first things I said in this thread -- the law will take its course. That's not the argument, because what i'm saying is THE LAW is hypocritical. And...STILL....no legitimate reasons have been given to convince me otherwise. I'll keep enjoying it though, b/c I want my steaks.
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After acknowledging that he was desperate, Dwight said "people will resort to saying things they know aren't true when they are desperate." That about sums it up! |
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DMan
Posts:0
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| 07/23/2007 2:16 PM |
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Posted By vranged on 07/23/2007 1:34 PM
I know it's illegal. That's one of the first things I said in this thread -- the law will take its course. That's not the argument, because what i'm saying is THE LAW is hypocritical. And...STILL....no legitimate reasons have been given to convince me otherwise. I'll keep enjoying it though, b/c I want my steaks.
"It's my tunnel vision and I'll stay blind if I want to!"
-Vranged
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vranged
Posts:2679
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| 07/23/2007 2:49 PM |
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How in the hell is it tunnel vision, when I've acknowledged all sides of the argument, and even stated that I engage in the same hypocrisy that I'm saying exists? So, the question must be asked -- do you even know what "tunnel vision" is? By your shot in the dark quote, it's obvious you don't.
Because if you did, you'd see that you, my ignorant friend, are the one engaging in it. Just because puppies are cute, you think they deserve some better fate than cows. That has no practical application to any natural order of things in this world. It's a societally-created myth, with no foundation, other than man's preference to eat cows over dog. THAT'S IT!!!!!!!!!! No moral compass needed for that distinction. Cows taste better, so we can slaughter them.
I guess you enjoy living in denial. You're not alone. |
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After acknowledging that he was desperate, Dwight said "people will resort to saying things they know aren't true when they are desperate." That about sums it up! |
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Crit40
Posts:2338
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| 07/25/2007 2:02 PM |
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Vranged, I'm starting to get your point on this topic. Yesterday I heard Gene Upshaw, in a comment regarding the allegations..."these are the worst imaginable" or something to that effect.
Really? Murdering someone wouldn't be worse? Killing someone while driving drunk wouldn't be worse?
I don't know about you guys, but the 24-7 Michael Vick show is getting a little old. |
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Counting the Herd one hoof at a time. |
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Logan
Posts:2525
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| 07/25/2007 2:26 PM |
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| yes this is getting old. vick can dissapear just as fast as bonds in my opinion. |
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dwight, refuting reality one post at a time. |
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vranged
Posts:2679
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| 07/25/2007 4:37 PM |
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Crit, that was pretty much my point. YEah, it's disturbing what Vick did, but he's no Rae Carruth. He's no Leonard Little (who, to this day, I have no idea how he's still in the league). He's no Cincinatti Bengal.
In a way, I think it's sad how human life is so devalued compared to these stupid animals. Gene Upshaw was way off in his assessment of these crimes; however, most in society seem to agree with him. |
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After acknowledging that he was desperate, Dwight said "people will resort to saying things they know aren't true when they are desperate." That about sums it up! |
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Blackshirt
Posts:547
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| 07/26/2007 12:21 AM |
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Amen on the Leonard Little comment.
That being said, I would hope Vick, if found guilty, will go from a place where he could be traded for draft picks to a place where he could be traded for a carton of Luckys. |
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"Perhaps the worst thing that can happen is to reach into the refrigerator and come out with something that you cannot identify at all. You literally do not know what it is. Could be meat, could be cake. Usually, at a time like that, I'll bluff. "Honey, is this good?" "Well, what is it?" "I don't know. I've never seen anything like it. It looks like...meatcake!" "Well, smell it." (snort, sniff) "It has absolutely no smell whatsoever!" "It's good! Put it back! Somebody is saving it. It'll turn up in something." Thats what frightens me. That someone will consider it a challenge and use it just because it's in there." -- George Carlin |
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egami
Posts:5061
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| 07/26/2007 7:35 AM |
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Posted By vranged on 07/23/2007 10:45 AM
I have not heard a practical, legitimate reason why you shouldn't compare slaughtering cows to dogfighting. Look at the end result. They're the same -- dead, abused animals.
I don't really give a rip about "humane" treatment of animals. They aren't human and don't merit human treatment.
However, I think there are a couple distinct, fundemental differences between meat production and animal fighting that are quite obvious.
One, the end result in meat production has a purpose which is feeding people. Two, animal fighting is done purely for entertainment value.
Also, I've seen the documentaries on the meat processors and while I can agree there are problems that need corrected in the industry(mostly plant-specific which the documentaries I've seen exploited and claimed represented the entire industry) I can also speak from firsthand experience that those stories are largely blown way out of proportion.
Honestly, and the end of the day I don't feel that animal fighting should be a federal offense. However, I do think it's a blatently irresponsible way to treat animals and I am about as far as you can get from a PETA member. I don't have a problem with people being jailed for deliberately electrocuting and torturing animals for sheer enjoyment.
I am not saying you're wrong in pointing out a contradiction many people have in their concern for animals. I just think that there are logical, reasonable difference between the two scenarios that make it not quite so apples to apples.
Maybe those two distictions aren't critical in your mind, but they are in my mind. Especially when considering how you treat the two situations in relation to a reasonable (note, not humane) treatment of animals.
Probably the most important point, that you did make, that I agree with is that it's ridiculous how devalued human life has become in comparison. |
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Go Blue! |
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Logan
Posts:2525
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| 07/26/2007 11:56 AM |
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| after all it is perfectly ok to suck a fetus out of the womb. |
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dwight, refuting reality one post at a time. |
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Crit40
Posts:2338
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| 07/27/2007 6:28 PM |
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| A puppy fetus? I think not! |
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Counting the Herd one hoof at a time. |
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Crit40
Posts:2338
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| 07/27/2007 7:32 PM |
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Apparently Nike suspended Vick's endorsement deal and Reebok pulled his jersey from its line. No one saw that one coming.
Additionally, Vick had to turn in his dog breeding license. Way to kick the guy while he's down.
In a related story, NBA ref Tim Donaghy was pulled from his gig with the goldenpalace.com. Golden Palace's spoke- person sited his unwillingness to "play ball" as the primary reason for his termination. |
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Counting the Herd one hoof at a time. |
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vranged
Posts:2679
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| 07/28/2007 9:07 AM |
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I thought about wearing a Michael Vick jersey to the Humane Society, and asking one of the workers: "Is there a limit on the number of dogs I can buy?"
With regards to Donaghy, my feeling is that most cheaters in this world don't get caught. It's a sad reality. That being said, I have major concerns about the number of refs/players that engage in similar point-shaving activities. Donaghy likely isn't the only one, despite Stern's claim that he is. |
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After acknowledging that he was desperate, Dwight said "people will resort to saying things they know aren't true when they are desperate." That about sums it up! |
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